“Baptism of Desire” Debate: Catechism of Trent – Council of Florence

Bro. Peter Dimond


How Can 'Baptism of Desire' Be Contrary to Dogma?

[a very important section of the debate]

'Baptism of Desire' Debate: Catechism of Trent - Council of Florence

[new video – full debate]




These are extremely important new videos on the salvation/baptism issue.  Since the heretic who had agreed to debate us backed out of the debate – and there was quite of bit of important and new material we wanted to present – we decided to conduct an explanatory debate anyway.  This ‘debate’ explains the issues in much detail, refutes the opposing view, and proves the true position.  This debate contains many extremely important new points refuting ‘baptism of desire’ and their most cherished objections.  It also refutes things such as their claim that the dogmatic statements that no one enters Heaven without water baptism only apply in the ‘ordinary’ case or circumstances, but not in the ‘extraordinary’ case or circumstances.  It refutes their frequently-voiced objection: wouldn’t your position mean that saints were heretics?; and much more.  There are so many important points covered in this video that we have decided to upload a crucial portion of the second half of the debate as a separate video, even though that material is also contained in the full debate video.  Those who want the details on how to refute the ‘best’ objection BOD heretics have to offer need to watch this debate.  Since the Catechism of Trent was one of the major topics addressed in the ‘debate,’ the full debate video contains extremely important new points which concern refuting the objection BOD heretics advance on that matter.




MHFM: Here are a few examples of one of the first points covered in the recent debate.  In the following quotes, notice that in each case the position that no one is saved without the Sacrament of Baptism is the position the Catechism identifies as the position to be communicated by pastors.


Catechism of the Council of Trent, “Matter of Baptism - Fitness,” p. 165: “Upon this subject pastors can teach in the first place that water, which is always at hand and within the reach of all, was the fittest matter of a Sacrament which is necessary to all for salvation.”


Catechism of the Council of Trent, “On Baptism – Necessity of Baptism,” pp. 176-177: “If the knowledge of what has been hitherto explained be, as it is, of highest importance to the faithful, it is no less important to them to learn that THE LAW OF BAPTISM, AS ESTABLISHED BY OUR LORD, EXTENDS TO ALL, so that unless they are regenerated to God through the grace of Baptism, be their parents Christians or infidels, they are born to eternal misery and destruction.  Pastors, therefore, should often explain these words of the Gospel: Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God (Jn. 3:5).


Catechism of the Council of Trent, “Baptism made obligatory after Christ’s Resurrection,” p. 171: “Holy writers are unanimous in saying that after the Resurrection of our Lord, when He gave His Apostles the command to go and teach all nations: baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, the law of Baptism became obligatory on all who were to be saved Hence we can have no doubt that the words of the Saviour: Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God, refer also to the same time which was to follow after His Passion. If, then, pastors explain these truths accurately, there can be no doubt that the faithful will recognise the high dignity of this Sacrament.




This passage is of particular interest; for in it the Catechism identifies the true teaching, WHICH PASTORS MUST COMMUNICATE AND PASS ALONG TO THE FAITHFUL, as: that all in the Church are ‘members’; all in the Church are part of the ‘Body’; and that all have been regenerated in the same sacrament of faith/baptism.  This of course contradicts the heretical theory of ‘baptism of desire’ and the position of all of its defenders.


Catechism of Trent, on the ‘Our Father,’ p. 510: “There is but one God, the Father and Lord of all; and consequently we have all the same nobility of spiritual birth, all the same dignity, all the same glory of race; for all have been regenerated by the same Spirit through the same Sacrament of faith, and have been made children of God and co-heirs to the same inheritance. The wealthy and great have not one Christ for their God; the poor and lowly, another; they are not initiated by different Sacraments; nor can they expect a different inheritance in the kingdom of heaven. We are all brethren and, as the Apostle says in his Epistle to the Ephesians: We are members of Christ's body [Ephesians 5:30], of his flesh and of his bones. This is a truth which the same Apostle thus expresses in his Epistle to the Galatians: You are the children of God, by faith in Jesus Christ; for as many of you as have been baptised in Christ, have put on Christ. There is neither Greek nor Jew, neither bond nor free, neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.  Now this is a point which calls for accuracy on the part of the pastor of souls, and one on which he should purposely dwell at considerable length; for it is a subject that is calculated both to strengthen and animate the poor and lowly…” 




Here are a few examples of the language in the Catechism which demonstrate that not everything in the Catechism necessarily had to be or was going to be communicated to the faithful.  Rather, only certain points of doctrine (such as the position on water baptism quoted above) were specified as matters that must not be omitted or as specifically to be taught.  Many other quotes on this point were covered in the debate.


Catechism of Trent, on Indissolubility: “The pastor should not here omit the salutary admonition of St. Augustine…”


Catechism of Trent, on the Holy Ghost: “The pastor should also accurately explain to the faithful that the Holy Ghost is not only God…”  


Catechism of Trent, Article II: “Wherefore, the pastor should not omit to remind the faithful that the guilt and punishment of original sin were not confined to Adam…”


Catechism of Trent , on the Creed, ‘on the Trinity’: “… let the pastor teach that the terms nature and person used to express this mystery should be most scrupulously retained; and let the faithful know that unity belongs to essence, and distinction to persons.”


Catechism of Trent, ‘Thy Will Be Done,” “Though the faithful are not to be left in ignorance of the import of this Petition, yet in this connection many questions concerning the will of God may be passed over which are discussed at great length and with much utility by scholastic doctors.” 


Catechism of Trent, on Taking God’s name in vain: “The above observation should strongly convince the pastor that on this point it is not enough to speak in general terms…”


*Many other quotes on a variety of topics were covered in the debate.  These are just a few on one particular matter covered in the debate.  This file might be updated with more quotes from the debate if time permits.